Done with Taiwan, off to WWDC

by Anand Lal Shimpi on 6/1/2005 2:17 AM EST
Comments Locked

41 Comments

Back to Article

  • Your father - Monday, June 13, 2005 - link

    OTABEL, stop posting. Ever. Again.
  • Anonymous - Thursday, June 9, 2005 - link

    #38: "I can't really see that MS will be threatened"

    MS has been very worried in the past by the sale of any boxes, that could run it's software, being sold without an OS installed.

    They have tried for years to tie OS/Office to box:

    Licensing schemes that insisted on a manufacturer buying a license for every box they produced.

    Licensing schemes for schools that counted all the computers, even Macs, regardless of whether or not they could even run the software being bought.

    They were taken to court in Germany over insisting that a copy of Windows could not be sold because it must remain with the PC it was sold with - they lost. They still insist that is the case in other countries where the law hasn't been tested.

    There are many examples of Microsoft claiming that producing boxes without an OS was tantamount to piracy.

    They tried a few years back to remove the need for an install CD... using a read only boot partition on the HDD instead. So that PC and OS were inseparably linked.

    If Apple start selling, in any significant numbers, boxes that can have Windows easily installed it is a certainty we will see MS react to prevent piracy.
  • OTABEL - Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - link

    So I'm here again and yet NO ARTICLE ON 360 and PS3, are you ever goin to put it up or not! Just tell us, did you cance it or what?

    That way I don't have to waste my time here.
  • Xboxer - Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - link

    Hasn't Anand already said that Apple Macs with Intel Inside will be able to run Windows as well? I guess this could make the MACs a bit more appealing to Windows users...

    Microsoft's response? I've been trying to figure this out...(part of my job as an Analyst :) ) but I can't really see that MS will be threatened at all by this move...although MS will be mindful of Apple + Intel trying to move into the Home Entertainment business together...that's one area MS is actively trying to get into and has had repeated failures in the past...

    Comments on MS's future strategies???
  • Anonymous - Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - link

    Here's another angle:

    You are in the market for a quality PC. You look at Dell and then you think about Apple. The new range of quality Dells looks OK and runs Windows. The Apple looks great, runs Mac OS X, and you read somewhere that someone's got Windows running natively on them too.

    So do you buy the Windows only Dell?

    Or the Mac and Windows Apple?

    We're not talking emulation but natively running both.

    Of course, what you may really want is the Mac OS to run on the cheapest PC you can find but you can bet that Apple is going to work really hard to make sure you can't.

    This may prove a real temptation for people. Will Microsoft respond to lots of boxes that can run Windows coming onto the market without their OS installed? Look at their history of going after OS free PCs.

    I suspect that MS will have an interest in ensuring that you need a dongle or VPC product to make it work.
  • Anonymous - Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - link

    http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=11...

    That explains it well. No laptop processors from either Freescale or IBM on their road maps. No low power Desktop CPUs to keep Apples Recording Industry customers happy about noise level. Apple really does not want to have to be fitting liquid cooling.

    Just think what lawsuits they could end up with in a few years time when those things start leaking.

    #35 - I agree there may be a DRM issue too.
  • Xboxer - Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - link

    hmmm...you're right #33...cost is the primary issue, though a useful side-effect...

    i mentioned this specifically for the benchmarking results on Apple's website extoling PPC over AMD and Intel's x86...that was one of their primary ingredients for the SWITCH campaign...

    It's been mentioned before, but I think the real reason why the switch happened is two-fold:

    1) Apple wants more variety in terms of processors to expand its user-base.

    2)Main Reason in my Opinion: The hardware-based DRM from Intel will allow it to woo major Hollywood studios...Apple sees the way forward for them in the personal and home entertainment business...(clearly the reason why they went with Intel instead of AMD)...
  • Anonymous - Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - link

    This kind of backs up #33 over the "Apple's a greedy liar" juvenalia:

    "Since the end of last year, relationship between Apple and IBM are bad, very bad... Apple considers IBM as the new Motorola. IBM has been facing huge problems with the PPC975, lately renamed 976 then 980 that has been continuously postponed.
    The 970MP processor project has been launch to avoid a big gap and a abnormal delay between processor update. But it would have been ready only by beginning of 2006 at the earliest, while IBM is still facing problems to manufacture the PPC970FX in large volume.
    Concerning the PowerBookG5, all developments have been stopped. The reason: no way to manufacture PPC970GX necessary to answer both requirements for mobility and battery lifespan. In addition, they could not setup an efficient cooling system as well as a corresponding battery.
    IBM has also decided to drop the PPC750VX which was designed to replace the G4 in entry-level computers."
  • Anonymous - Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - link

    knitecrow: "#20 is right. Its not that apple is using intel chips, its what apple has being saying about intel chips for the past x number of years. "RISC is better... Altvec " etc etc "

    Try to come to terms with the concept of time. This is not a platform war. Apple adopted PPC when it did have an edge over Intel. They had laptops with 4 and 5 hour battery lives because G3s were using 4watt when Pentium IIIs were at 30w.

    "The PPC970FX is an impressive processor that holds up very well to the likes of P4 and Athlon64. "

    It's a hot processor too and Steve Jobs has ALWAYS placed importance on silence - even to the detriment of hardware at times, excluding fans when they really were needed.

    "This decision was based on cutting costs, pure and simple. And here the is catch... i doubt those savings will be passed on to the end user. "

    This is absolutely NOT about cost - have you bothered to look at the cost of Pentium M chips relative to AMD and IBM? This is about LOW POWER. AMD and IBM do not offer a laptop usable chip - and I have heard of no plans from them to do so. Clearly you do not understand the design ethos at Apple - or the degree of criticism they get when a machine comes out sounding anything like a PC wind tunnel - a couple of year back they offered a fan replacement scheme because of noise - ever heard of a PC company recalling perfectly good fans on the basis of noise alone?

    "This about face 360 lie is going to come back to bit apple."

    I think you mean 180 degree.
  • Pinkus777 - Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - link

    How about that X360 vs. PS3 article already?
  • BELOTA - Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - link

    I agree with OTABEL, at least gives us another update on what's going on, by now it seems like you REALLY forgot about the article.

    Anyways, I'm hoping for a good article, I'm willing to wait but not that much.
  • OTABEL - Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - link

    So, what the crap happened with the X360 and PS3 article, wow, talk about missing a deadline--Was it a deadline anyways?

    I still remember when you said you'd have it one day after announcing you were working on that, but I think about 2-3 weeks have passed and there's still not new info on it, what's up with that, are you REALLY THAT busy?

    Thanks, I'm just hoping you hurry up :D
  • Anonymous - Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - link

    Personally I'd love to see Apple use AMD. It would be a big smack in the face to Intel. I guess I just like the idea of two underdogs kicking some butt. If Apple used the Operton perhaps we'd finally see some real Apple gaming.
  • Anonymous - Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - link

    Ha, let all the PPC fanboys mourn. It'll be okay though. The Apple marketing hype will make the everyday intel processors we're used to sound like a million bucks.

    Though one might wonder if the discussions with Apple have been going on for some time. Perhaps this helped motivate Intel to adopt 64bit processing at a faster pace.

  • Xboxer - Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - link

    sorry...26 is my comment...
  • Anonymous - Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - link

    To #21: One thing will never change, the fanatism of Apple fanboys (zealots rather)! Anyway, it's your opinion,I'm cool with it.
  • Xboxer - Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - link

    hey Anand:

    1) could you comment on the implications of this move for companies like AMD and Microsoft (maybe even Linux)

    2) for your X360 vs PS3 article this is some more info. apparently the R520 will be faster than two 6800 ultra in SLI and seeing that the R500 (in X360) is more advanced than R520, you could have an estimate of the GPU performance...don't know much about PS3's GPU though...

    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23752

    Thanks!
  • knitecrow - Monday, June 6, 2005 - link

    #20 is right.

    Its not that apple is using intel chips, its what apple has being saying about intel chips for the past x number of years.

    "RISC is better... Altvec " etc etc

    The PPC970FX is an impressive processor that holds up very well to the likes of P4 and Athlon64.

    This decision was based on cutting costs, pure and simple. And here the is catch... i doubt those savings will be passed on to the end user.

    This about face 360 lie is going to come back to bit apple.
  • Anonymous - Monday, June 6, 2005 - link

    Anand,

    I'm hearing reports that the Pentium 4 demo boxes at WWDC are running fairly stock G5 motherboards (except for slightly modified U3H memory controllers). Apparently they still even use HyperTransport to link the CPU to the chipset. Is this even possible? If so, you absolutely HAVE to try to land one of these dev kits and get Apple to let you talk about this Intel/Apple hybrid architecture.
  • DJ - Monday, June 6, 2005 - link

    So, will we be reading a review of OS X on Intel in a few weeks?
  • Anonymous - Monday, June 6, 2005 - link

    #20 : "man i can't believe this Jobs guy...he's been touting the advantages of PPC over x86 for years now (on Apple's own website, benchmarking etc) and yet now he says that they want to switch cause of higher performance on x86...make up your mind man."

    If you are having problems with the concept of change over time examine yourself in the mirror.
  • Xboxer - Monday, June 6, 2005 - link

    man i can't believe this Jobs guy...he's been touting the advantages of PPC over x86 for years now (on Apple's own website, benchmarking etc) and yet now he says that they want to switch cause of higher performance on x86...make up your mind man.
  • Anonymous - Monday, June 6, 2005 - link

    So the deed is done: Apple switch to Intel by end 2007.

    Looks like a large part of their lead over Microsoft in the OS stakes is going to be lost to porting, debugging and optimising.
  • Anonymous - Monday, June 6, 2005 - link

    Apple to use Intel CPUs?

    If they must ditch IBM because of the needs of laptops then AMD is not much use either - it's the mobile chips that are needed.

    Shame because Opteron looks good.

    A two vendor policy might not be possible if they are after Intel discounts. One thing to note: Intel are not cheap. This move is not going to make them more affordable.
  • Anonymous - Sunday, June 5, 2005 - link

    reply to gnumantsc:

    "Apple plans to move lower-end computers such as the Mac Mini to Intel chips in mid-2006 and higher-end models such as the Power Mac in mid-2007".

    If Apple were to switch to x86, why not change all product lines by 2006?

    I think it's just a threat against IBM, not to neglect Apple with MS, Nintendo and Sony demanding alot of IBM attention right now.

    If they do go with Intel. It's more reasonable to believe that Intel's producing a new processor for Apple, then Apple changing to x86.
  • gnumantsc - Saturday, June 4, 2005 - link

    Hey Anand,

    I guess you can finally cover the supposed move of Apple to Intel CPUs I guess that will steal the show if it is true.

    Stupid choice for Jobs to ditch a good processor and go with an Intel machine. Those Prescotts and Dual Cores will get so hot it'll melt the Mac Mini casing...

    Once the announcement is finalized yell out AMD would've been a better choice! Atleast then they'll get a real Dual Core solution and a CPU with better performance without creating a stove of a PC.
  • Anonymous - Thursday, June 2, 2005 - link

    why is the nvidia turbo chache 32mb faster then the 64mb one???
  • Anonymous - Thursday, June 2, 2005 - link

    why is the nvidia turbo chache 32mb faster then the 64mb one???
  • Anonymous - Thursday, June 2, 2005 - link

    why is the nvidia turbo chache 32mb faster then the 64mb one???
  • Tanclearas - Thursday, June 2, 2005 - link

    #4 - Yeah... nVidia bias. That's why under "Anand's Picks" the motherboard listed is an ATI RS480-based board. Anand clearly despises ATI, and to show his hatred, he recommends that people go out and buy a motherboard based around an ATI chipset (including the ATI south bridge).

    Did you forget to take your meds today?
  • Xboxer - Thursday, June 2, 2005 - link

    ya i know...i was actually anticipating part 2 from a while back...so i hadn't completed reading the article before i post here...he's got the demo thing confused...

    the rest of the article seems to go in the right direction...it's even backed up by some developers' comments.

    The interesting thing is that if the X360 architecture is actually going to be bad at A.I., game control and Physics...(seeing the shift in gaming...more physics etc)...it makes it even more plausible that Microsoft should include the PPU in there...so that the processor only has to handle game controls, A.I. and other things...Cost-wise I don't think this is going to happen...but I do see a lot of hints towards this...1) Microsoft hinting strongly that there might be hardware upgrades 2) the TeamXbox interview with Ageia tech. pres. who said that "on this one you'll have to wait" when asked if X360/PS3/Rev will have a PPU...3) the listing on Ageia's website that lists ASUS and "one large OEM" who have signed on to use the PPU chip...that OEM is supposed to be a console manufacturer...

    anyway...just rants maybe!
  • hohoho - Thursday, June 2, 2005 - link

    to #9

    I'd read the article, only the conclusion and there's a huge error, killzone's sony's demo not ms...... hmmm...hope he got the technical issues right... :)
  • Xboxer - Thursday, June 2, 2005 - link

    hey Anand, for your X360 vs. PS3 review, here's another link:

    http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360...

    Interesting!!!?
  • GhandiInstinct - Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - link

    Buggy drivers for Crossfire? How long have they been working on this? I heard pre-21st century.
  • Gage8 - Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - link

    great review. All I can say is...maybe a better digital camera?
  • jkiley - Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - link

    #4 - I disagree.

    First of all, AnandTech's Crossfire review was generally positive. In the conclusion, Derek and Anand say: "If ATI can get CrossFire out to the market in good volume (for its potential demand), we could have an excellent alternative to SLI on our hands." Obviously they aren't going to have anything more concrete than that because they haven't had a chance to test final silicon extensively. I would consider that line to be very optimistic.

    Secondly, it seems clear to me that Anand's job here is to present the facts to his readers, regardless of what company the facts favor. The fact is that he's hearing from the motherboard manufacturers in Taiwan that they are having problems with ATi's southbridge, and that many are successfully using a southbridge from ULi. This is good news for the consumer, because it means that even if ATi can't get their southbridge to work well, we will still have access to bug-free Crossfire motherboards using ULi southbridges. I'm glad we know that, because otherwise people would inevitably hear somewhere else that ATi's southbridge is crap and think "that's too bad, that pretty much ruins the great potential of Crossfire."

    As for the part about ATi pressuring motherboard makers to use their southbridge - I'm not omniscient so I can't tell you what Anand or Derek are thinking when they write something, but it seems to me like it's a pretty clean presentation of the facts. People in Taiwan said that they were getting pressure from ATi to use ATi's southbridge, and Anand passed the info on to us. Is there something wrong with that? Would you rather Anand not tell us what he hears?

    Perhaps Anand really is getting free cars and huge payoffs from nVidia to tell us that ATi wants Taiwanese companies to use their southbridge, not ULi's, but I think it's more likely that he's just telling us what he's heard. It's not like he's adding spin to it by saying "Clearly ATi is desperate for every penny they can get - they'll do anything to stop mobo makers from using ULi chips" or "Think twice before you buy your next nVidia video card, you wouldn't want ATi's hitmen to show up at your door some day." The article doesn't make ATi out to be a monster, if that's what you get from it, that's just your interpretation of the facts.

    If there's a pro-nVidia bias anywhere on AnandTech, it's in some nVidia fan-boy thread in the forums. I think pretty much everybody who reads this site daily would agree it's nowhere to be found in anything written by Anand or his staff.
  • tuzz - Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - link

    #4 geez take it easy.

    If I was looking at spending my hard-earned cash on one of these boards I sure as heck would like to know that the product I'm getting is as bug-free as possible. As it is now the southbridge isn't up to snuff, and I for one would like to know that before I make my purchase.

    "The pro-nVidia bias is so thick at this web site!" -- you just have to read the reviews on this site to see this statement is so untrue.

    Anand's doing a great job of bringing us balanced and objective reviews. And they're free too. Give the guy a break.
  • Anonymous - Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - link

    Where were the G70/R520 reviews???

    I don't get this, "Let's bring our latest to Computex, run them behind the scenes, but don't officially announce them" bit. As much as Anand would like to single out the faults of ONE company, this applies to both ATi and nVidia.

    Oh, and I love how in your Day 2 review you have to go out of your way to note whether a particular Crossfire board is running the ATi or ULi southbridge. (When you mention ULi, it's basically a jab at the quality of ATi's southbridge then you mention how ATi is pressuring mobo makers like evil dictators.) The pro-nVidia bias is so thick at this web site!
  • puffpio - Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - link

    Geez your schedule is nonstop
  • hopejr - Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - link

    Bonjour in iChat is good. I've used it a few times.

    Have fun at WWDC. The industry partner (a lecturer at my university :P) of my final year project will be at the WWDC showing off a demo of our project (which is terribly behind schedule).
  • judge_fire - Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - link

    WWDC; make sure you have Bonjour turned on in iChat ;)

    J

Log in

Don't have an account? Sign up now